Curse

Vecte · Aug 11, 2010, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Yeti Smash makes q-knocking incredibly easy. I love it for RA, and especially AB because of the AOE KD.

Dev Hammer > Flail > Crushing Blow > Auto Attack > Yeti Smash.

If you follow that path, it's pretty much a guaranteed q-knock, without having to q-step. Of course, Yeti Smash only KDs if there is a condition on your opponent, but 9/10 times, you will have one on your opponent because of either Dev Hammer, Crushing Blow, or both.

As far as Hammers are concerned, the three most important ones are Vampiric, Ebon(Any Element really), and Furious. Vampiric is going to be your main Spiking Weapon. If your adrenaline is built, you should have this weapon out. The next is your Ebon Hammer, or again, any element really. Use this hammer to check other Warriors. If you switch to this weapon on another warrior, and it's doing more damage, they aren't using Sentinel's Insignias, and this should be the weapon you use to spike them with. If the Ebon Hammer is doing the same damage, use the Vampiric instead, because it will total more DPS. Finally, once your spike is over, you should immediately switch to your Furious Hammer. People think that because of the low proc percentage that it's useless, well they could not be more wrong. The Furious Hammer is invaluable between spikes.

As far as Zealous Hammers are concerned, you shouldn't even need a Zealous Hammer in your line-up. Your main bar should only have 3, at most 4, energy based skills. Also, each one of these energy based skills have a conditional use, and will not be spammed, or used with frequency, in any way. Crushing Blow and Bull's Strike are the two absolutely required Hammer bar skills. Both are only 5 energy, and both are highly conditional. One, the target has to be knocked down, and the other, the target has to be moving. You can even say Crushing Blow is even more conditional, in that it should only be used during your spike, due to the larger CD. Your other energy based skills are likely going to be your IMS(Enraging Charge), and either Death's Charge, or another attack(I prefer Protector's Strike because of the amazingly fast activation, which is awesome for a Hammer Spike. What most people don't realize is, Prot Strike's value comes from that activation, not the +Dmg it gives. If you have Prot Strike, you should be using it during your spikes, usually after your second KD.) Your IMS is going to have a large CD no matter what, unless your are using Rush, which isn't even energy based. Death's Charge has a large CD as well, which leaves plenty of recharge time, just like the other energy based IMS's. If you are using an extra attack, it's only going to be used during your spike, which leaves a small amount of time between, again, for recharge.

When you take all of the above paragraph into account, your innate energy recharge is more than enough to sustain you. The only time I would recommend a Zealous Hammer, is if for some reason, a Mesmer is burning your energy, and to be honest, if this is happening, that Mesmer is pretty terrible, and will most likely be killed off pretty quickly anyway, or you are the last person left alive. The are other, much higher, priority targets for a Mesmer to energy burn than you. Honestly, if I were a Mesmer wanting to shutdown a Warrior, I would be Blacking him Out the entire match.

If you are absolutely worried about energy, here is a bar to consider:

Dev Hammer, Crushing Blow, Auspicious Blow, Yeti Smash, Bull's Strike, Flail, Enraging Charge, Res Signet.

Basically, your spike goes like this:

Dev Hammer > Flail > Crushing Blow > Auspicious Blow > Yeti Smash

Auspicious Blow replaces the auto attack in the spike, which still allows you to q-knock with Yeti Smash, it's adrenal based, adds plus damage, gives you a good chunk of energy, and it's unblockable due to Dev Hammer.

MaaKotka · Aug 11, 2010, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Vecte: I agree most of your post except zealous weapon/energy part. If you use enraging charge on recharge and spike once in 20 seconds you will use more energy than your natural regen makes so if you also bulls and use prot strike out of your spike you are losing energy quite a bit faster than your natural regen gets you. So you definately need zealous when using your skills effectively.

When you are using other weapon than zealous I still ain't certain if it is better to use furious or vamp/sund.

Vecte · Aug 11, 2010, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

Vecte: I agree all of your post except zealous weapon/energy part. If you use enraging charge on recharge and spike once in 20 seconds you will use more energy than your natural regen makes so if you also bulls and use prot strike out of your spike you are losing energy quite a bit faster than your natural regen gets you. So you definately need zealous when using your skills effectively.

When you are using other weapon than zealous I still ain't certain if it is better to use furious or vamp/sund.

Very true, but this is based off the fact you would have to be using your spike every 20 seconds. In a perfect world, I would love to be able to do this, but 9/10 times, it won't happen. First thing that comes into play, is what form or PvP are you doing? Second, who are your opponents? Third, who is your target? Fourth, how are your teammates?

If you are doing RA, there is more than a multitude of instances that are going to either shut you down entirely, or prevent you from spiking in another way. AB, doesn't matter as much. GvG, your spikes are going to be coordinated, which means everyone has to be ready, which means, larger times between spikes. Also, in GvG, there are many other circumstances that would prevent you from spiking so often. Then, with the Zealous Hammer, you have to be hitting for it to be doing anything. There again, are a multitude of scenarios that can prevent you from attacking entirely, which makes the Zealous Hammer moot.

Also, another thing I didn't mention, and you didn't mention, is the time between each energy based skill used. During your spike, you are only going to use one energy based skill(possibly two if using Prot Stike). The rest are adrenal based, and auto attacking. Your energy is building back up, during this time. Also, your Bull Strikes will have time between them as well, due to you having to hit a kiting opponent.

There are more circumstances than there aren't, when it comes to energy based skills on a Hammer Warrior. While you think you may be running out of energy, chances are, you simply won't. I don't, and I do pretty darn fine myself(not trying to be cocky). If you think you need a Zealous Hammer, then by all means, carry one. However, I feel if anyone plays a Hammer Warrior long enough, they will find just how much they won't need it.

As far as Vamp/Sundering, Vamp is greater by far. Vamp is what is called, sustained DPS. That extra DPS will always be there, no matter what. Sundering has to rely on a proc for the extra DPS. This is what I would consider, Burst DPS, and while nice, can be very unreliable. As far as Furious, like I said, if you aren't spiking, you should be using a Furious Hammer.

MaaKotka · Aug 11, 2010, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Well ok, lets make another example.

With 2 pips of energy regen you will get 40e in 60 seconds. If you do 2 spikes in a minute and use 2 energy skills on both spikes (crushing and prot), then you use 2 times enraging charge and 2 bulls within that 1 minute time span you are using all of your natural regen.

I'd say that is spending quite a lot of time not using your skills.

I'm talking mostly on GvG perspective, but I really don't see why all this wouldn't apply to other formats too. But what would I know, I'm far from good warrior.

aznhalf · Aug 11, 2010, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Sundering hammer is amazing in almost all situations in ways that I'm too lazy to explain, just use it^_^

The only time you'll switch to zealous is either on an NPC or during a knock combo. If you're not in flail on a stationary target you won't get any energy back. I only know of a couple warriors who bother with a zealous hammer because it will generally require weapon swapping out of your inventory and who tries that hard these days.

Vecte · Aug 11, 2010, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

Well ok, lets make another example.

With 2 pips of energy regen you will get 40e in 60 seconds. If you do 2 spikes in a minute and use 2 energy skills on both spikes (crushing and prot), then you use 2 times enraging charge and 2 bulls within that 1 minute time span you are using all of your natural regen.

I'd say that is spending quite a lot of time not using your skills.

I'm talking mostly on GvG perspective, but I really don't see why all this wouldn't apply to other formats too. But what would I know, I'm far from good warrior.

Never said anything about your, or anyone else's, skill as a Warrior, and I'm not calling you bad for wanting to use a Zealous Hammer. I even said, if you feel you need a Zealous Hammer, by all means, use one.

I'm simply stating, that due to the varied time between spikes, as well as energy based skills used, a Zealous Hammer is not required to maintain your energy pool. Remember, you only need 5 energy to be there to perform your energy based action. During your spike, you are only going to use 5, 10 energy at the most, the rest is auto attacking. Also, what your opponent does during/after the spike, also determines what you do. Again, a multitude of things come into play.

For instance, during your spike, your target can be come hexed, or ailed by a condition, that prevents them from properly escaping you. During this instance, you will continue to use Flail, since the target will stay near you, therefore delaying your usage of Enraging Charge. Also, a player worth their salt, won't try to move unless the hex/condition is removed, because kiting would not be an option, and it leaves them open for an easy Bull's Strike. This small amounts of time, plus the times during your main spike, your energy is replenished enough for you to use those proper skills needed. Your energy bar doesn't need to be at 75% or higher, all the time, it just needs to be there for the instance you need to use the skill.

Also, I am not saying that there are not situations where a Zealous Hammer would be useful. Their are scenarios where a Zealous Hammer could prove handy. Like I have said before, carry one. If you feel you need it out, then use it. However, I implore everyone to go without using one, if you have been using one frequently. If you are using a Meta bar, you will find out just how much you really do not need it.

AGAIN, if something works for you, use it. Just because it goes against the Meta, doesn't mean it makes you a bad player. I tend to base what I do, off of the Meta, and because of this, certain things are not required.

*lemming* · Aug 11, 2010, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Furious isn't great.

Also, if you want to use Yeti Smash, don't use Crushing immediately after Dev unless you're expecting a lot of assist damage.

Vecte · Aug 11, 2010, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Furious isn't great.

Also, if you want to use Yeti Smash, don't use Crushing immediately after Dev unless you're expecting a lot of assist damage.

Out of curiosity, why not right after Dev(after activating your 33% IAS of course)? Yeti Smash is simply taking the place of Hammer Bash, so why change anything else in the attack string? To qknock with Yeti, you still need to Dev Hammer > IAS > Attack > Attack > Yeti. I don't see the difference in using CB as the first attack after the IAS, or the second attack.

Still Number One · Aug 12, 2010, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vecte

Out of curiosity, why not right after Dev(after activating your 33% IAS of course)? Yeti Smash is simply taking the place of Hammer Bash, so why change anything else in the attack string? To qknock with Yeti, you still need to Dev Hammer > IAS > Attack > Attack > Yeti. I don't see the difference in using CB as the first attack after the IAS, or the second attack.

My guess as to where he is going with that would be because if you put it on right after dev hammer you are giving the monk more time to remove the conditions which then negates the knockdown effect of Yeti Smash.

Vecte · Aug 12, 2010, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

My guess as to where he is going with that would be because if you put it on right after dev hammer you are giving the monk more time to remove the conditions which then negates the knockdown effect of Yeti Smash.

I see, but that's assuming the other Monk is present, makes since. Although, again, depending on the setting, if it's only one monk, and you are targeting them, it doesn't matter because Yeti Smash is going to equal a q-knock.

*lemming* · Aug 12, 2010, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Even if there's only one monk there, you aren't always going to be hitting it. Also, there's always Mending Touch. Most of the time, if you're not expecting a kill, the best thing to do is to ensure that your second knock connects. Applying DW early only serves to deter that. In fact, saving Crushing until after Yeti works even better.

Also, Yeti being used as a fast trigger for DW produces the same kind of out-of-nowhere kills that Dev->Crushing->Protstrike would.

Reverend Dr · Aug 12, 2010, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnieBoi05

What's your particular answer on this? I see different scenarios and/or answers in my head.

/rank (/zrank or /aion)

This increases the area that clicks to target you to about the "nearby" area. It makes qstepping on someone near impossible since you can no longer click on the ground next to the person.

jonnieboi05 · Aug 12, 2010, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

/rank (/zrank or /aion)

This increases the area that clicks to target you to about the "nearby" area. It makes qstepping on someone near impossible since you can no longer click on the ground next to the person.

lol.... Wow, man. Just wow.

I knew zrank/rank makes it annoying to q-step due to the "collision box" expanding, but geez, this would not have came to my mind as an answer. >_<

Randomness.

Swahnee · Aug 12, 2010, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

If you want you can learn to q-step while playing casters too when wanding. I do that sometimes when monking.

Thanks for the advice. I'm starting doing this^^

Regarding the zealous yes/no, it seems to me that you have two different playstyles:

Quote:

I swap to zealous when I'm getting low on energy. I like to have 5-10 energy available all the time so I can use skills when there is good opportunity to do so. Your normal regen isn't enough to use skills effectively, it is enough to use skills only on spikes, but doing "minispikes" with prot strike/bulls is good to make monks to use their precious skills, energy and time.

I think that the energy need comes from those minispikes between "real" spikes. So if you plain to do big spike-autoattack-big spike etc., you are fine without zealous, while if you like to do also bull's/prot around to give the monks a false sense of spike, you'll start to need also the zealous from time to time. They seem both viable styles of playing IMHO.

Quote:

Vampiric is going to be your main Spiking Weapon.

I have no doubt that Vampiric is better than Sundering in both spike and dps situations, but i always thought that a vampiric was a better choice also when autoattacking (thus making pressure), but you said you prefer furious. Is it because you are focusing on spiking the most possible times, so you need to charge adrenaline the faster you can, thus sacrificing the DPS from the vampiric when autoattacking, or do you think that the vampiric when autoattacking is simply not worth it (maybe because, differently from axe warriors who can autoattack in frenzy, hammer warriors don't use an IAS when autoattacking, and this makes autoattack less powerful)?

Quote:

Also, Yeti being used as a fast trigger for DW produces the same kind of out-of-nowhere kills that Dev->Crushing->Protstrike would.

Actually, this is very interesting, but i remember to have seen several threads regarding how to put deep wound, and it was said that putting DW at the end of the spike negates the reduced healing bonus of DW, because there wouldn't be the actual time for this effect to become useful, while if you start with DW monks' heals will be less effective (supposing that you aren't trying to get a kill, but only to force monks to use heals instead of prots => badly managing energy, which is what i call "to slip damage before prots"). What are your positions in this subject?

Is there anyone who likes bodyblow (likely instead of prot) and why?

MaaKotka · Aug 12, 2010, 09:27 AM // 09:27

When playing spike build that includes warrior(s) you definately want to pressure also in between spikes. That way you make your spikes harder to see and enemy monks have to guess whether this one is real spike or just some smaller spike. Also you when you make pressure you get monks to use their prots more often so they are spending more energy and their prot skills may not be recharged for your real spike also your spikes goes through easier to targets that aren't topped up. For example you have adrenaline ready and you do bulls->prot strike to someone and right after swap target and do your full spike. Chances are that at least one of their monk has guardian recharging and can't fully prot your real spike.

For the need for zealous, I like to maximize my damage output also when not spiking so I will use prot strike whenever I have chance to get extra damage from it and when bulls is recharging, also doing bulls->crushing->prot inbetween your real spikes drain your energy quite a bit.

*lemming* · Aug 12, 2010, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

Actually, this is very interesting, but i remember to have seen several threads regarding how to put deep wound, and it was said that putting DW at the end of the spike negates the reduced healing bonus of DW, because there wouldn't be the actual time for this effect to become useful, while if you start with DW monks' heals will be less effective (supposing that you aren't trying to get a kill, but only to force monks to use heals instead of prots => badly managing energy, which is what i call "to slip damage before prots"). What are your positions in this subject?

The healing reduction is little more than a fringe benefit unless you can get it to stick, which is impossible 8v8. You're reducing their energy efficiency a lot more by holding on to your Crushing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

Is there anyone who likes bodyblow (likely instead of prot) and why?

It's good if you plan on soloing monk flaggers.

Playing Is Srs Bsns · Aug 12, 2010, 04:52 PM // 16:52

furious sword for fast adrenaline gogogogo

fowlero · Aug 12, 2010, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

Is there anyone who likes bodyblow (likely instead of prot) and why?

Love it.

As lem said you can solo flaggers easily, and a guaranteed kill if you take warriors cunning instead of sig.

I just like having the big unconditional damage, allows you to punish bad positioning so much more and score kills you may not manage otherwise.

Vecte · Aug 13, 2010, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

I have no doubt that Vampiric is better than Sundering in both spike and dps situations, but i always thought that a vampiric was a better choice also when autoattacking (thus making pressure), but you said you prefer furious. Is it because you are focusing on spiking the most possible times, so you need to charge adrenaline the faster you can, thus sacrificing the DPS from the vampiric when autoattacking, or do you think that the vampiric when autoattacking is simply not worth it (maybe because, differently from axe warriors who can autoattack in frenzy, hammer warriors don't use an IAS when autoattacking, and this makes autoattack less powerful)?

Is there anyone who likes bodyblow (likely instead of prot) and why?

My reasoning for not using Vampiric during adrenal build up, is one of the same reasons I don't prefer Zealous. Without an IAS active, the Hammer swing is so slow, neither will have a breaking effect on your opponent, or yourself. Let's face it, you aren't going to kill anyone with Auto-attacks and no IAS, you are going to kill them with a spike. Similar situation with Zealous, without an IAS, and only 1 pip, you really aren't returning much more energy than passive.

Another thing to consider about Vampiric. Vampiric has to hit enough times, in a certain amount of time, for it to be as good as, or superior to Sundering. Without an IAS, Sundering would honestly be a better choice, if you want the extra damage, but still even then, Sundering performs better with an IAS as well. This is why I prefer Furious between spikes. Without an IAS active, it tends to have the more beneficial proc. Yes, an IAS helps Furious as well, but we are talking from a perspective where no IAS is present. When there is no IAS present, Furious offers the better option, IMO. The first, and foremost, you are keeping the pressure up with damage(you would be doing this with any hammer regardless), and second, it provides a chance for you to spike sooner.

As far as Body Blow, it really isn't a bad replacement for Prot Strike. However, I offer two suggestions if you want to take Body Blow. You need to consider two things, the first, what is the chance that your opponent will have cracked armor? Outside of RA, this chance is likely closer to 5-0% chance, plus, you are already inflicting a Deep Wound from Crushing Blow. So, what's left? Well, that would be the adrenal cost, and damage. Here comes the second question. How many points do you have in Strength? Assuming you are 12+1+1 with Hammer Mastery, are you 12+1 Strength, or 12+2 Strength? If you are 12+1, Mighty Blow would probably be your better option, since it is the same adrenal cost, but slightly more damage. If you are 12+2, Body Blow's damage is the same, so it is definitely the better choice.

*lemming* · Aug 13, 2010, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Most sane people run 14 Strength/13 Hammer.

An IAS increase has nothing to do with how beneficial Sundering/Vampiric are.